Re: Einsteins Time Re: SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Dr. Bhakti Niskama Shanta wrote: Dear Dr. Deepak Chopra Ji

Namaskar.

You have correctly mentioned that Btfmad Bhagavad-gita explains about the soul (fffman) that "water cannot wet it, fire cannot burn it, weapons cannot shatter it. It is ancient unborn and deathless". Soul is unaffected by these material elements, because, soul is superior energy (marginal energy: tatastha-takti)of Supreme Absolute and matter (water, fire and material weapons) is inferior energy (external energy: bahiraaga talcti) of Supreme Absolute.

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bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ
khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
ahankara itiyaṁ me
bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā
(Śrīmad Bhagavad-gīta: 7.4)

Translation: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, and ego are the eight divisions of My illusory potency in this world.

apareyam itas tv anyāṁ
prakṛtim viddhi me parām
jīva-bhātām mahā-bāho
yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat
(Srimad Bhagavad-gīta: 7.5)

Translation: 0 mighty hero, Arjuna, this external, worldly nature is inferior. But know that
superior to this nature is My marginal potency, comprised of the individual souls. Worldly
existence is adopted by the souls for enjoyment through fruitive actions. {The divine world
emanates from My internal potency and the mundane world from My external potency. The
potency of the living beings is known as marginal as they are constitutionally situated midway
between these planes. They may choose to reside either in the mundane plane or the
divine.}

Vedic system advises that one should learn Srimad Bhagavad-gita and the Vedic wisdom under a qualified teacher (Sri Guru) and then only one can realize it as it is. Srimad Bhagavad-gita does not support impersonalist view. Please let us know what you have to say about the several verses in Srimad Bhagavad-gita that clearly highlights the personalist view. For example:

ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā
bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san
prakṛtim svām adhiṣṭhāya
sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā
(Śrīmad Bhagavad-gīta: 4.6)

Translation: Although My eternal form is transcendental to birth and death, and I am the Lord of all beings, I appear within the world in My divine nature, by My sweet will, extending My internal potency.

avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ
manyante mām abuddhayaḥ
paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto
mamāvyayam anuttamam
(Srimad Bhagavad-gīta: 7.24)

Translation: My eternal superexcellent nature—My form, qualities, activities and pastimes are all transcendental, but unwise persons cannot know the truth, and they think, "The formless Brahman took birth in Vasudeva's cell as an ordinary human being."

śrī-bhagavān uvāca
mayy āveśya mano ye māṁ
nitya-yuktā upāsate
śraddhayā parayopetās

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to me yukta-tama matah
(Srimad Bhagavad-gita: 12.2)

Translation: The Supreme Lord said: In My opinion, those who with faith in the divine are absorbed in thought of Me, t yamasundara, and worship Me constantly with exclusive devotion, are the superior knowers of yoga.

Srimad Bhagavad-gita clearly highlights the personalist view. The verse 2.12 from Slimed Bhagavad-gita completely refutes the idea of singularity of consciousness, where Bhagavan Sri Krishna says to Arjuna: "na tv evahath jatu nasath na tvath neme janadhipah na caiva na bhaviwamah sarve vayam atah param - Never was there a time when you, I or all these kings did not exist, just as we exist in the present, so have we existed in the past, so shall we continue to exist in the future." Therefore, according to the Vedantic view, the plurality of individuals is an eternal fact, and it is confirmed in other Vedic sources (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13 says: nityo nityanatn cetanat cetananam — We are eternal, we are many, and Supreme Absolute is also eternal, but He is one) and by authentic teachers like Sripad Ramanuja Acharya and other Vaieoava Acaryas.

We will be happy to know your views on these conclusions of Slimed Bhagavad-gita.

This is not a chart. The key information is:

• Sender: Bhakti Niskama Shanta, Ph.D.
• Recipient/Context: Deepak Chopra
• Date: Sunday, 7 August 2016, 12:38 AM
• Topic: Conclusions of "Slimed Bhagavad-gita", specifically the nature of the inner self as pure consciousness without form.

The inner self which is pure consciousness has no form .

Having no form it is beyond birth and death ( non local )

Upanishads ( Gita )" Water cannot wet it , fire cannot burn it , weapons cannot shatter it . It is ancient unborn and deathless "

That which has form is in time , a transient pattern of behavior of the formless and subject to birth and death .

Tagore " In this playhouse of infinite forms I caught sight of the formless and so my life was blessed .

Only the formless is real !

Deepak Chopra

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

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On Aug 6, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Brad Bartholomew > wrote:

Dear Deepak

By "formless consciousness" are we to understand that you have rejected the explanation for consciousness given in the Upanishads which unambiguously attributes consciousness to the operations of the Inner Self.

Kind regards
Brad

On 6 Aug 2016 20:20, "Deepak Chopra" < > wrote: The brain is perceived in the same way as a rock No experience happens in the brain - only electrochemical activity Experience occurs in formless consciousness including the experience of a brain in a cadaver , in surgery or a CTScan

Deepak Chopra

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

On Aug 6, 2016, at 6:30 PM, Brad Bartholomew <| wrote:

Dear Deepak

I beg to differ on this. The universe is a random mass of EM waves that the human brain interprets. The brain itself is not a random mass of EM waves; it is an electronic computing machine that must run according to a program that generates consciousness. You say that consciousness is the ultimate reality and I say it is the program that codes for consciousness which is the ultimate reality so you see we are not that far apart. In fact henceforth I shall call this program Cosmic Consciousness and we can be in complete agreement.

Kind regards

Brad

On 6 Aug 2016 10:10, "Deepak Chopra" wrote:

Brad

The human brain is also electromagnetic waves and has no privileged position over a galaxy or a piece of rock or a grain of sand or a thought. If you substitute the word consciousness for brain I'm with you . All perpetual objects including brain and Galaxy are modified forms of consciousness

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Deepak Chopra

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

On Aug 6, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Brad Bartholomew <
wrote:

Dear Deepak

Well I absolutely agree with you as well. The fact is that without a human brain to observe it then the universe would be a mass of electromagnetic waves and would be as invisible as a cell phone network. Ask not whence comes the universe but ask whence comes the human brain. However I don't agree with you that we can never know reality. The only issue is whether the universe is a physical reality or a virtual reality. Given the fact that the universe is a construct of the human brain then it must be a virtual reality as per the Hindu tradition. There's no doubt there's something real happening out there, and its just a matter of locating the data. Kind regards

Brad

On 4 Aug 2016 10:07 p.m., "Deepak Chopra" < > wrote:
Thank you Avatar
What you say makes total sense to me
Warm regards

Deepak Chopra

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

On Aug 3, 2016, at 8:23 PM, Asingh2384 < > wrote:

Hi Deepak:

Enjoyed your video on Stephen Hawking and other atheists' positions. You have eloquently described the current limitations of the mainstream science to describe the "Ontological Primitive Reality" or existence.

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As you mention, current scientific theories include EM strong and weak nuclear forces and gravity. However, so far science has been unable to develop and integrate the missing physics of anti-gravity or spontaneous expansion of the universe as evidenced by Hubble. Einstein tried to fudge the anti-gravity via a fudge factor — "Cosmological Constant" that he later called his biggest blunder. The recent Supernova observations have pointed to an accelerated expansion (beyond the linear Hubble expansion) in the far-field universe leading to the speculation of Dark (unknown) Energy signifying a strong anti-gravity force in the universe.

What is astonishing that when the physics of the well-known spontaneous decay of particles is integrated into general relativity, it leads to a physical mechanistic theory of anti-gravity that predicts the empirical observations of the universe, explains the dark energy and accelerated expansion of the universe. It also resolves the key paradoxes of QM eliminating the Big Bang singularity and associated incredible phenomena such as the superluminous inflation, multiple universes, and eventual death of a purposeless universe.

What is even more wondrous that such an integrated model of the physics of spontaneity provides a scientific (physical and mathematical) basis for the Zero point state of the "Ontological Primitive Reality" described as the unmanifested (fully dilated mass/energy), Eternity (fully dilated time), Omnipresence (fully dilated space) at the speed of light. (This is synchronous with the experiences of the spiritual masters and sages during deep meditation or Samadhi or Enlightenment (fully dilated Ego)).

What is significant and noteworthy here is that in spite of the fact that such a Zero-point state is immeasurable (unmanifested) and experimentally unverifiable, but it is humanly experience-able, repeatable,and it does follow the same sets of universal laws that predict the empirically observed universe resolving its current paradoxes. It also leads to a scientifically describable universal consciousness or existence synonymous with the "Ontological Primal Reality".

Mainstream science needs to recognize and integrate the missing physics of spontaneity as a possible panacea to curing the current paralysis of science as well as solving the mystery of the observed universe and the experienced consciousness. Such an integrated approach would not only bridge science and spirituality, but also provide purpose and meaning to the universe and life in it.

Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.

------Original Message------
From: Deepak Chopra <
To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga
Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2016 3:24 am
Subject: Re: SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness

FYI
Re Stephen Hawking and other atheists

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The image is a blank canvas with vertical white lines on a white background. It does not contain a chart or any discernible information to extract.

Deepak Chopra

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

On Aug 2, 2016, at 7:52 AM, " < > wrote:

Dr. Moskowitz

What do you mean by "enters awareness"?

What do you do with a depressed state? Mood is depressed, the content is irrelevant. And what does intension have to do with a depressed state?

AL MD

On Jul 23, 2016, at 10:22 PM, >
wrote:

A very interesting and simulating discussion thread regarding consciousness. Perhaps we will all "know" the "answer" the day we take our final breath and transcend from this physical human form to our pure energy form. Perhaps then in that moment we will truly understand this answer. Until then, we continue to explore and engage.

Best,

Deb

Dr. Debra Lindh

"This is a transmission from the company of the Mindful Effect, LLC and Dr. Debra Lindh and may contain information which is privileged, confidential, and protected. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please destroy it and notify us immediately at our telephone number (763) 360-7073."

Original Message Subject: Re: SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness From: "Asingh23841 via Sadhu-San a Under the hol association of S d. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." Date: Thu, July 21, 2016 5:04 pm To:

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The image is not a chart. It displays a series of parallel vertical lines. Six thin, light gray lines are on the left, followed by a thicker, bright blue line on the right.

Consciousness (Free Will) is a non-local universal phenomenon not a local or biological (brain) phenomenon. Hence, no local (space-time limited) treatise of consciousness can explain consciousness. It is like trying to explain the elephant by its tail or to explain blue skies via a cloud. It is also like churning water to produce butter.

A computer only generates numbers (bits) not consciousness. A computer has no self, free will or awareness of its own.

Regards

Avtar

—OriginalMessage--
From: Dr. Mike Sosteric
To: online_sadhu_sanga
Sent: Thu, Jul 21, 2016 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness

Asfor consciousness the fact is that we are relying on consciousness in order to ask the question What is consciousness? And the fact that after all the advancements in computer science we can fundamentally disagree on such a bask question as to whether consciousness is computer generated or not means that ultimately we will never be able to completely answer that question.

No. That's like saying, because "we" are all confused now, "we" will all be confused in the future. What kind of scientist would accept a proposition like that?

The image is an email header.

Key information:

• From: [Redacted]
• Sent: 21 July 2016 03:11:04
• To: [Redacted]
• Subject: Re: SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness

Dear Soren & Witt

I think most scientists would agree with the propositions of Seth Lloyd in his book Programming the Universe that the universe is a gigantic quantum computer (although why in this age of miniaturization a quantum computer needs to be the size of the universe to generate the universe is another question). If Seth Lloyd is right then everything in this universe is ultimately computer generated.

As for consciousness the fact is that we are relying on consciousness in order to ask the question What is consciousness? And the fact that after all the advancements in computer science we can fundamentally disagree on such a basic question as to whether consciousness is computer generated or not means that ultimately we will never be able to completely answer that question. It is the same for physicists seeking the theory of everything. They are entities within the universe seeking to know everything about the universe. They are ultimately bound by the program that set them up in the first place.This is the way Seth Lloyd explains it: "Cadet showed that the capacity for self-reference leads automatically to paradoxes in logic; the British mathematician Alan Turing showed that self-reference leads to uncomputability in computers."

When a computer processes data the data contains instructions to the computer as to its source. Virtual drives are set up on computers that give the computer

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false information as to the source of the data and the computer is none the wiser. This is what t meant when t said that computers are tricked every day as to the source of the data they are processing. Sensory data contains instructions that it is coming from a physical external world, but it ain't necessarily so.

Kind regards

Brad

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 5:37 AM, Soren Brier

wrote: wrote:

Dear Brad

As a biologist I will deny that we are a computers in the Turing understanding of it. I know we try to imitate living neural networks in the dead computers we have now. It gives a few steps forward but does not really solve the deed problem. You need to define a much more general model for computation that can cover what our machine do as well as living organisms including those without a brain do and how socio-communicative function. As a scientist and philosopher I have to say that we have not agreed on what we are or what the world is constructed from. No doubt the concepts of matter, energy, force and information are depicting true aspects of reality, but when I in neurobiology and psychology was looking for experience and qualia in the nervous system, I — and nobody else - did not find any. There is some insufficiencies on our metaphysical framework. This is why i am interested in the debate with other cultural metaphysics of which Advaita Vedanta is one of the more interesting and I think can be brought into harmony with a new physical understanding build on quantum physics and non-equilibrium thermodynamics systems science and cybemetics and last but no least Peircean semiotics.

Best wishes

This is not a chart. The image displays the name "Søren Brier" at the top, followed by a large black rectangle. No other information is discernible.

Fra:

Pa vegne of Brad Bartholomew

Sendt: 20. juli 2016 20:09
Til:

Emne: Re: SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness

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Dear Soren

Well you know it is undeniable in my opinion that consciousness is computer generated. It is also undeniable that we are a computer generated entity that is trying to figure out what it is. Ergo we come up against that fundamental principle in computer science that we can't think outside the program. Once you accept the fact that consciousness comes from sensory data then all bets are off as to the actual source of that data. Computers are tricked every day as to the source of the data they are processing.

Kind regards

Brad

On 20 Jul 2016 07:29, "Soren Brier" < wrote: Dear Brad

The knotty question is also: Why looks at the television screen. That question makes your model collapse.

Søren

Fra:

PS vegne of Brad Bartholomew

Sendt: 19. Jul' 2016 19:45

Til:

Emne: Re: (Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness

With respect I think consciousness is the easiest thing of all to explain. It is the representation of sensory data on the cortex of the brain that acts as a sophisticated television screen that we can smell taste and touch as well as see and hear. The knotty question is whether that sensory data actually comes from a real physical external world as it appears to do, or whether the source of that data is within us as per the Hindu tradition. My vote is for the latter.

Kind regards
Brad

On 18 Jul 2016 7:13 a.m., "Peter Moskovitz" <
wrote:

I've no idea how my email address got attached to this conversation and I'm rather certain that my comments will be unwelcome, but, arrogant pedant that I am, you shall have them.

That Dawkins does not understand consciousness comes as no surprise.

Any conversation with Hammeroff is, a priori, non-informative. Consciousness obeys the laws of chaos (randomness does no occur in nature), as do quantum fields, but consciousness has nothing to do with the perturbation of quantum fields in any part of the nervous system. It was a nice try, but a silly one.

Consciousness has no contents. It is about something (intensionality) but it has no contents, nothing that can be observed, measured, recorded or analysed. Therefore, there is no "granularity" of consciousness: qualia do not exist. The hard problem is an illusion. Mysterianism is not so much a lack of knowledge as it is a lack of imagination and insight. As Adam Zeman put it: If your theory admits to the existence of zombies, your theory needs fixed. You have to say that with a Scottish accent.

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The image displays a series of vertical lines. There are eight gray lines, with the first seven spaced closely together and the eighth slightly wider. To the far right, there is a single, thicker blue line. The image appears to be a visualization of abstract data rather than a conventional chart with axes or labels.

Consciousness (the feeling of what happens, the remembered present) is the experience of perceptual contents. Do not mistake this definition with "the contents of perceptual experience". They sound alike, but the word order changes the meaning completely. Perceptual contents are the neural representation of stimuli, internal or external. Neural representations can be observed (if one's instruments are good enough), measured, recorded and analysed. The experience of the representation cannot, it is subjective, entirely subjective. Experience has no contents. Spirituality is a state of experience but it is not the "contents" of experience. (Which is one reason why the DL has declared that if neuroscience disproves his beliefs, he will search for new beliefs, brave fellow.)

Consciousness is the synchronous oscillation of massively interconnected, multidimensional, recursive circuits, networks and systems throughout the global workspace. What enters awareness probably oscillates at about 40 hz. Oscillation at partial and harmonic frequencies probably effect how the perceptual apparatus represents transduced stimuli, how other perceptual contents enter consciousness and awareness and how contents are retained to enter awareness later, when the stimulus is remote. The theory has no empirical support, though parts of it have been validated. It's not new, and certainly not with me. Theorists and investigators I like include Crick and Koch, Rudolfo Llinas, Wolf Singer, Henry Markram and many others. Certainly not Chalmers, Jackson, Nagel, McGinn, Hammeroff and Penrose, etc.

Sorry, I warn most people that they shouldn't "get me started".

I promise I'll send no more.

PM

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Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist

Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist

Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26-27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Sponsorship and Donations for Vedanta and Science Dialogue: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness - The Vedantic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer

Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org

Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org

Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

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Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga

Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact

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