Re: Re:

i love this idea that there is no self deception
only some "internal discussion"

it goes furthr„ the internal discussion is so virulent in certain instances , that " hearing voices" „ dual personalities.. schizophrenia. appears to the outside third party , illuminating the othewise secret internal conversation.

that's a great point. it reminds me of the milgram experiment -- the people in the experiment realize that by increasing the voltage they hurt and might even kill the students but many of them continue to do it -- they tell themselves what they do is ok because the experimenter says so.

but if you look at their faces while they do it you realize that there is an amazing internal conflict (they start to laugh nervously, cry, fidget, talk to themselves etc; they behave like schizophrenics).

that's why such experiments that use deception and self-deception can never be done again. they really harm the subjects -- several of them completely lost it. but i think they're valuable to show the internal struggle that jeffrey is pointing out.