Re: SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness
I've no idea how my email address got attached to this conversation and I'm rather certain that my comments will be unwelcome, but, arrogant pedant that I am, you shall have them.
That Dawkins does not understand consciousness comes as no surprise.
Any conversation with Hammeroff is, a priori, non-informative. Consciousness obeys the laws of chaos (randomness does no occur in nature), as do quantum fields, but consciousness has nothing to do with the perturbation of quantum fields in any part of the nervous system. It was a nice try, but a silly one.
Consciousness has no contents. It is about something (intensionality) but it has no contents, nothing that can be observed, measured, recorded or analysed. Therefore, there is no "granularity" of consciousness: qualia do not exist. The hard problem is an illusion. Mysterianism is not so much a lack of knowledge as it is a lack of imagination and insight. As Adam Zeman put it: If your theory admits to the existence of zombies, your theory needs fixed. You have to say that with a Scottish accent.
Consciousness (the feeling of what happens, the remembered present) is the experience of perceptual contents. Do not mistake this definition with "the contents of perceptual experience". They sound alike, but the word order changes the meaning completely. Perceptual contents are the neural representation of stimuli, internal or external. Neural representations can be observed (if one's instruments are good enough), measured, recorded and analysed. The experience of the representation cannot, it is subjective, entirely subjective. Experience has no contents. Spirituality is a state of experience but it is not the "contents" of experience. (Which is one reason why the DL has declared that if neuroscience disproves his beliefs, he will search for new beliefs, brave fellow.)
Consciousness is the synchronous oscillation of massively interconnected, multidimensional, recursive circuits, networks and systems throughout the global workspace. What enters awareness probably oscillates at about 40 hz. Oscillation at partial and harmonic frequencies probably effect how the perceptual apparatus represents transduced stimuli, how other perceptual contents enter consciousness and awareness and how contents are retained to enter awareness later, when the stimulus is remote. The theory has no empirical support, though parts of it have been validated. It's not new, and certainly not with me. Theorists and investigators I like include Crick and Koch, Rudolfo Llinas, Wolf Singer, Henry Markram and many others. Certainly not Chalmers, Jackson, Nagel, McGinn, Hammeroff and Penrose, etc.
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PM
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EFTA00645150
Dear Brad
The knotty question is also: Why looks at the television screen. That question makes your model collapse.
Søren
Fra: [mak<
] PS vegne af Brad Bartholomew
Sendt: 19. lull 2016 19:45
Til:
Emne: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Consciousness
With respect I think consciousness is the easiest thing of all to explain. It is the representation of sensory data on the cortex of the brain that acts as a sophisticated television screen that we can smell taste and touch as well as see and hear. The knotty question is whether that sensory data actually comes from a real physical external world as it appears to do, or whether the source of that data is within us as per the Hindu tradition. My vote is for the latter.
EFTA00645149
Kind regards
Brad
Dear Soren
Well you know it is undeniable in my opinion that consciousness is computer generated. It is also undeniable that we are a computer generated entity that is trying to figure out what it is. Ergo we come up against that fundamental principle in computer science that we can't think outside the program. Once you accept the fact that consciousness comes from sensory data then all bets are off as to the actual source of that data. Computers are tricked every day as to the source of the data they are processing.
Kind regards
Brad
Dear Soren & Witt
I think most scientists would agree with the propositions of Seth Lloyd in his book Programming the Universe that the universe is a gigantic quantum computer (although why in this age of miniaturization a quantum computer needs to be the size of the universe to generate the universe is another question). If Seth Lloyd is right then everything in this universe is ultimately computer generated.
As for consciousness the fact is that we are relying on consciousness in order to ask the question What is consciousness? And the fact that after all the advancements in computer science we can fundamentally disagree on such a basic question as to whether consciousness is computer generated or not means that ultimately we will never be able to completely answer that question. It is the same for physicists seeking the theory of everything. They are entities within the universe seeking to know everything about the universe. They are ultimately bound by the program that set them up in the first place.This is the way Seth Lloyd explains it: "Gtklel showed that the capacity for self-reference leads automatically to paradoxes in logic; the British mathematician Alan Turing showed that self-reference leads to uncomputability in computers."
When a computer processes data the data contains instructions to the computer as to its source. Virtual drives are set up on computers that give the computer false information as to the source of the data and the computer is none the wiser. This is what I meant when I said that computers are tricked every day as to the source of the data they are processing. Sensory data contains instructions that it is coming from a physical external world, but it ain't necessarily so.
Kind regards
Brad
As for consciousness the fact is that we are relying on consciousness in order to ask the question What is consciousness? And the fact that after all the advancements in computer science we can fundamentally disagree on such a bask question as to whether consciousness is computer generated or not means that ultimately we will never be able to completely answer that question.
No. That's like saying, because "we" are all confused now, "we" will all be confused in the future. What kind of scientist would accept a proposition like that?
EFTA00645147
Consciousness (Free Will) is a non-local universal phenomenon not a local or biological (brain) phenomenon. Hence, no local (space-time limited) treatise of consciousness can explain consciousness. It is like trying to explain the elephant by its tail or to explain blue skies via a cloud. It is also like churning water to produce butter.
A computer only generates numbers (bits) not consciousness. A computer has no self, free will or awareness of its own.
Regards
Avtar
A very interesting and simulating discussion thread regarding consciousness. Perhaps we will all "know" the "answer" the day we take our final breath and transcend from this physical human form to our pure energy form. Perhaps then in that moment we will truly understand this answer. Until then, we continue to explore and engage.
Best,
Deb
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FYI
Re Stephen Hawking and other atheists
https://www.facebook.com/Deepak Chopra/videos/10153808865630665/
Deepak Chopra
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Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing
Dr. Moskowitz
What do you mean by "enters awareness"?
What do you do with a depressed state? Mood is depressed, the content is irrelevant. And what does intension have to do with a depressed state?
AL MD
Hi Deepak:
Enjoyed your video on Stephen Hawking and other atheists' positions. You have eloquently described the current limitations of the mainstream science to describe the "Ontological Primitive Reality" or existence.
As you mention, current scientific theories include EM strong and weak nuclear forces and gravity. However, so far science has been unable to develop and integrate the missing physics of anti-gravity or spontaneous expansion of the universe as evidenced by Hubble. Einstein tried to fudge the anti-gravity via a fudge factor— "Cosmological Constant' that he later called his biggest blunder. The recent Supernova observations have pointed to an accelerated expansion (beyond the linear Hubble expansion) in the far-field universe leading to the speculation of Dark (unknown) Energy signifying a strong anti-gravity force in the universe.
What is astonishing that when the physics of the well-known spontaneous decay of particles is integrated into general relativity, it leads to a physical mechanistic theory of anti-gravity that predicts the empirical observations of the universe, explains the dark energy and accelerated expansion of the universe. It also resolves the key paradoxes of QM eliminating the Big Bang singularity and associated incredible phenomena such as the superluminous inflation, multiple universes, and eventual death of a purposeless universe.
What is even more wondrous that such an integrated model of the physics of spontaneity provides a scientific (physical and mathematical) basis for the Zero point state of the "Ontological Primitive Reality"
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described as the unmanifested (fully dilated mass/energy), Eternity (fully dilated time), Omnipresence (fully dilated space) at the speed of light. (This is synchronous with the experiences of the spiritual masters and sages during deep meditation or Samadhi or Enlightenment (fully dilated Ego)).
What is significant and noteworthy here is that in spite of the fact that such a Zero-point state is immeasurable (unmanifested) and experimentally unverifiable, but it is humanly experience-able, repeatable, and it does follow the same sets of universal laws that predict the empirically observed universe resolving its current paradoxes. It also leads to a scientifically describable universal consciousness or existence synonymous with the "Ontological Primal Reality".
Mainstream science needs to recognize and integrate the missing physics of spontaneity as a possible panacea to curing the current paralysis of science as well as solving the mystery of the observed universe and the experienced consciousness. Such an integrated approach would not only bridge science and spirituality, but also provide purpose and meaning to the universe and life in it.
Best Regards
Avtar Singh, Sc.D.
Alumni, MIT
Author of "The Hidden Factor - An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, Cosmology, and
Universal Reality"
Thank you Avatar
What you say makes total sense to me
Warm regards
Deepak Chopra
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of YourDNAfor Optimum Health and Wellbeing
Dear Deepak
Well I absolutely agree with you as well. The fact is that without a human brain to observe it then the universe would be a mass of electromagnetic waves and would be as invisible as a cell phone network. Ask not whence comes the universe but ask whence comes the human brain. However I don't agree with you that we can never know reality. The only issue is whether the universe is a physical reality or a virtual reality. Given the fact that the universe is a construct of the human brain then it must be a virtual reality as per the Hindu tradition. There's no doubt there's something real happening out there, and its just a matter of locating the data.
Kind regards
Brad
Brad
The human brain is also electromagnetic waves and has no privileged position over a galaxy or a piece of rock or a grain of sand or a thought.
If you substitute the word consciousness for brain with you . All perpetual objects including brain and Galaxy are modified forms of consciousness
Deepak Chopra
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing
The inner self is the center of all experience and volition Everything else is a concept including matter
Deepak Chopra
EFTA00645142
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNAfor Optimum Health and Wellbeing
Dear Deepak
I beg to differ on this. The universe is a random mass of EM waves that the human brain interprets. The brain itself is not a random mass of EM waves; it is an electronic computing machine that must run according to a program that generates consciousness. You say that consciousness is the ultimate reality and I say it is the program that codes for consciousness which is the ultimate reality so you see we are not that far apart. In fact henceforth I shall call this program Cosmic Consciousness and we can be in complete agreement.
Kind regards
Brad
The brain is perceived in the same way as a rock
No experience happens in the brain - only electrochemical activity
Experience occurs in formless consciousness including the experience of a brain in a cadaver , in surgery or a CTScan
Deepak Chopra
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Dear Deepak
By "formless consciousness" are we to understand that you have rejected the explanation for consciousness given in the Upanishads which unambiguously attributes consciousness to the operations of the Inner Self.
Kind regards
Brad
EFTA00645143
The inner self which is pure consciousness has no form .
Having no form it is beyond birth and death ( non local )
Upanishads ( Gita )" Water cannot wet it , fire cannot burn it , weapons cannot shatter it . It is ancient unborn and deathless "
That which has form is in time , a transient pattern of behavior of the formless and subject to birth and death .
Tagore " In this playhouse of infinite forms I caught sight of the formless and so my life was blessed . Only the formless is real !
Deepak Chopra
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing
Granted that the Inner Self has no form. But in order to create form it has to take form. The only way that can be done is by Information Technology. With respect, if the Upanishads are right then the Inner Self is processing and storing data. By its very nature the only way the Inner Self can manifest an external world is if the Inner Self takes the form of a computer.
Kind regards
Brad
The pain , the rock , the brain, the electrochemical changes are words invented by humans to describe experiences and the knowing of experiences in formless being . They are descriptions of experience and the knowing of experience . Death is the cessation of a continuum of experiences held together by memory . It is easy to be bamboozled by scientific models of reality - the objectification of self .
Reality is formless being and its modifications as sensations images feelings and thoughts given names - rocks brain pain etc
You are the total universe of experience
Unless you have experienced yourself as formlessness this's may be difficult for you to understand All the best
For now I have nothing more to say
Deepak Chopra
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNAfor Optimum Health and Wellbeing
DK
Absurd
If you take a rock and smash it into a living head with a brain inside. Protected by bone and dura (hmm) and measure the electrochemical changes in the brain after impact they will display remarkable phenomena, not evidenced by the rock. This can be done by in-reverse by smashing a living head into a rock. Only someone with rocks in his head could make such a claim - conflation.
ALautin MD