EFTA00969161

From: Ed Boyden cza To: Jeffrey Epstein <jeevacation@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Thanks Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2013 09:21:51 +0000 A brief update -- we just launched the MIT Center for Neuroengineering, http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2013/mit-launches-the-center-for-neurobiological-engineering.html to help catalyze catalyst for the new kinds of on-the-fly collaborative networks to solve brain problems, like what we were discussing. I'll keep thinking about this network might interface to some of the others that you pointed out, especially mathematical and theory-driven, and to the ideas that Martin was also catalyzing. Ed On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Ed Boyden <MI > wrote: > Great chatting with you and Martin over the last two days! Tons of > new and provocative ideas arose, and new ways to rethink old ones. > Looking forward to figuring all this stuff out :) > Ed > On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 4:04 AM, Jeffrey Epstein leevacation@gmail.com> wrote: » definitely. >> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 3:16 AM, Ed Boyden wrote: >>> >» Hi Jeff, >» >>> It was great chatting during your visit last week! Would you be >>> interested in brainstorming concrete paths that we could collaborate >>> on? Your points about focusing on simple aversive behaviors, and of >>> getting mathematicians on board early, are fantastic. And, while >>> there is a ton of excitement about neuroengineering, as usual a lot of >>> the most impactful and far-out ideas, because of their perceived >» hereticalness or risk, will be >>> passed over. I've started collecting a list of such ideas, which I >>> call the "atlas of brain computation" -- a way to systematically map >>> the computations involved with specific behaviors, such as aversive >>> emotion, with mechanistic and computational precision, in the coming >>> 5-7 years or so. Tell me if you might be interested in chatting about >>> potential paths -- the past discussions we've had have been really >» interesting. >» >» Best, >» Ed >» >>> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Jeffrey Epstein <jeevacation@gmail.com> >» wrote: >>» agreed, . EFTA00969161 >»> >»> >>> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Ed Boyden a wrote: »>» >»» I agree we need to analyze the music -- for the brain, that would be >»>> the behavior, I guess? -- but I would also argue that focusing on the >»>> music has been the traditional way people have done things, yielding >»» the very successful field of psychology. Right now we can delve into >»>> the mechanisms by which the music is generated, however -- and almost >>> >> certainly that will require far better descriptors and understandings >>> >> of the music itself! So in summary, to advance psychology beyond the >>> >> current state, we need radically new tools to map the brain, and then >»>> we will have such detailed mechanism that we can push the description >>> >> of the music forward too. »>» • » Ed »»> >>> >> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Jeffrey Epstein >>> >> <jeevacation@gmail.com> >»» wrote: >»>> > agreed.. but i also need to understand the music and well as the >»>> > musician, »»» . can we recognize music from the signals. probably. ? »»» regularities »»» , »»» coherence.. is there a program that can say this signal is a music »»» as >>> >> > opposed to conversation.? you are doing great work and i will >»>» follow >>> >> > closely »»» »»» >»»> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Ed Boyden a wrote: >» » » »»»> I certainly hope that nobody is proposing absurd reductionism! »»»> Certainly we are not. We do value *precision* however -- we need to >>> >> >> measure the system at the correct level of abstraction, to find the >>> >> >> building blocks that we know are important, if we ever want to be »»»> constructive and build up again. >>> >> >> The problem with analogies that are very simple and >»»» physics-oriented, is that while they can display complexity to be >>> >> >> sure, they rarely compute anything particularly profound -- even »»»> things like lightning or self-organized criticality or even chaos. >>> >> >> They look cool, but they don't generate intelligence, right? »»»> For the brain: there's complexity of structure that is inherent, >» » » and »»»> that while reductionism is not the goal, it's still true that we »»»> need >» » » **precision** if the data we acquire will be worth modeling. (The >>> >> >> closest analogy might be weather: we can predict the weather far >>> >> >> better now than we could even a decade or two ago, and the reason is >>> >> >> that we have the right kinds of data now -- satellite data, >>> >>» distributed data, etc. -- when you have that kind of data, at the »»»> density and time resolution that are appropriate, then the physics EFTA00969162 »»»> becomes meaningful and even modelable.) >>> >> >> That's why we need to map the entire brain: then we can watch as »»»> information flows from sensation areas, through circuits that >>> >> >> combine »»»> those sensory inputs with internal process like thoughts and »»»> emotions, >>> >> >> and then into motor and output areas that cause behavior. >>> >> >> To pick a piano analogy: if you want to understand a musician, >»»» it's >>> >> >> not enough just to watch a finger, or a string, or the sheet music. >>> >>» You need to observe the process as the person learns the music, »»»> controls the keys, and then creates the full musical experience, >»»» right? >» » » >» » » Ed >» » » >>> >> >> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Jeffrey Epstein >>> >> >> <jeevacation®gmail.com> >>> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >> > sorry, i posed a sloppy question. / From the view of »»»» understanding »»»» music, more akin to thought, i think that you need to careful »»»» that »»»» reductionism isn't taken to the absurd level, of looking at the »»»» string »>»» > makeup and how it causes sympathetic vibrations, might look »»»» like »»»» intent . >>> >> >> > there is a code that says , hit these strings and a melody »>»» > develops. >» » » > it >>> >> >> > has a temporal component , it has amplitude, but unless it is »»»» looked >» » » > at >» » » > as »»»» a whole the music is not there. I like aversive , as it appears »»»» hard >>> >> >> > wired, as another out side idea, look at the mathematics of »»»» lightning, it descrives well neural firings, with energy »>»» > minimization. >» » » > >» » » > >>> >> >> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Ed Boyden <MI > >>> >> >> > wrote: >» » » » >>> >> >> >> The piano itself isn't quite the analogy to the brain, because it »>»»» has >>> >> >> >> no memory, independent of the human playing it. After the finger »»»»> lifts, the strings quiets down. »»»»> So I am assuming that we need to model the human playing the >»»»» piano? »»»»> Suppose, say, we want to understand what emotion is generating »»»»> the »>»»» music. EFTA00969163 »»»»> If we could measure activity in the brain of the person playing >» » » » the >»»»» piano, and could predict what melody or sequence of notes the »>»»» person >>> >> >> >> would play, based on that activity, then we could infer that the >>> >> >> >> internal brain activity was causing the melody. This inference »>»»» might >>> >> >> >> be convertible into proof, if we were to stimulate the brain and >»»»» play »»»»> back an activity pattern into the brain, seeing how that would »»»»> alter >>> >> >> >> the melody being played. And if we have a molecular map of the >»»» » brain, >>> >> >> >> which we could simulate on a computer, we could through >>> >> >> » biophysical »»»»> simulation begin to see how the molecular interactions between >»»»» cells, >»»»» yield dynamics of the network, which then yield the sequence of »»»»> finger »»»»> commands that yield the music. »»»> >> Thus, the finger is the interface between two dynamical systems >» » » » -- »»»»> the brain and the piano. Each of those dynamical systems has a >>> >> >> >> physical implementation that can be modeled, if we have three »»»»> things: >>> >> >> -- mechanistic maps (piano: string lengths, material properties, >» » » » etc.) »»»>» -- dynamics (piano: the finger movements and temporal scuplting) >>> >> >> >> -- control (piano: we can modulate the human and see how the »>»»» music >>> >> >> >> changes) >» » » » >» » » » Ed >» » » » >>> >> >> »On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:46 AM, Jeffrey Epstein >>>»»» <jeevacation@gmail.com> »»»> >> wrote: >>>»»» > give me a piano music analogy, / watching the strings, ? > »»»» after >» » » » > key >>> >> >> >> > inputs,? interesting byt not dispositive of anything >»>> >> >> > meaningful >» » » » > >» » » » > >>> >> >> >» On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Ed Boyden »»»»» wrote: >» » » » » »»»»»> I agree we need a top-down! Two thoughts: >>> >> >> >> -- Yes, developing mapping circuit technology and then »»»»»> applying >» » » » » it >» » » » » to >>> >> >> >> >> simple behaviors -- hard wired aversive stuff -- is indeed a >» » » » » way EFTA00969164 »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> to go. As we plan out these mapping technologies, we're actually beginning experiments to map out these aversive things too. We are collaborating with many groups along these lines. We need to finish the fundamental technology building so that we can obtain maps at the right level, and then we can acquire datasets that are compatible with top-down theory, to be sure. -- Another way to think top-down is to work our way inwards, from the observables. We know that behavior -- movement, speech, other action -- is observable; if a feeling or thought is prominent enough, it will be manifest through these channels as an observable. Thus we can also try to infer internal states by their effects on observables, and then to associate neural activity with these internal states and observables. In theory this should scale to arbitrarily complex internal states, not just simple aversive states. Best, Ed On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Jeffrey Epstein <jeevacation@gmail.com> wrote: > i think you need a top down as well as bottom up. as > looking > at > my > piano > while being played, i can go string by string ( not string > theory > strings). hammer by hammer, material of string , molecular > interaction > naturalvibration, harmonics, sympathtice vibration but >i > would > not > hear > or understand the melody or music being played. I believe EFTA00969165 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> »»»»> »»>»» »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> >» that >> > each >> > individual has its own encrpytion algorithm, as the >» neural >> > net » > grows >> > it encrypts some input signals. some are hard wired. so >» instead >> > of >> > emotion >> > , movement, speech, etc, I think a proitable area of initail >» inquiry >> > should >> > be the hard wired aversive stuff only. smell of dead >> > meat. » > >> > reaction >> > to fire. i tihnk that aesthectics will be the greatest >» ration >> > of >> > output to >> > input. . or the least energy to decode. . dissonance, >> > cannot >» be >> > easily >> > resolved so the energy to decode the information, is too >» high >» and >> > becomes >> > painful. Does a dream state come upon us, or do we >» dream >» all >> > the >» time >> > and concious state relegates the dreams to behind the >> > screen. >» When >> > sleep >> > deprived the dreams begin to pop through the screen, as >> > hallucinations. >> > a breakdown of the screen , results in a form of >> > schizphrenia, >» where >> > they >> > cann no longer distiguish between voices. dream produced >» while >» awake >> > or >> > the >> > awake state angel on the shoulder whispering.. I am an >» avid >» fonder >> > of >> > the bleeding edge in many fields. keep me up to date on EFTA00969166 »»»»»» what >»»»» » > you >»»»» » > are >>>»»»» > doing, and hope to see you in your own habitat. >»»» » » > >»»» » » > >>> >> >> >> >» On Thu Ma 23, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Ed Boyden >» » » » » > »»»»»» wrote: >» » » » » » >»»»» » » Hi Jeffrey, >» » » » » » >>> >> >> >> » Yes, it was great chatting about all the ways >>> >> >> >> >> neuroengineering >»»»» » » is »»»»»»> going to go in the coming years, revealing both fundamental »»»»»»> mechanistic brain maps, and providing the control knobs for >»»»» » » fixing >>> >> >> >> >> brain disorders and understanding complex phenomena like >>> >> >> >> » consciousness. Would be great to talk about how then to >»»» » » » make >>> >> >> >> >> mathematical sense of these maps and control knobs... >»»» » » » arguably >»»» » » » the >>> >> >> >> >> » big stumbling block to date is the lack of good data, but »»»»»»> that's >»»»» » » about >>> >> >> >> >> >> to change, thanks to our current and future efforts! Then >»»» » » » we >»»» » » » will »»»»»»> have many things that require deep mathematics to >>> >> >> >> >> understand! >» » » » » » >»»»» » » Ed >» » » » » » >>> >> >> >> >> » On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 1:16 AM, Joi Ito <MI > >>> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >»»» » » » > Hi Jeffrey. >»»» » »»> >>>>>>> >> >> >> > Thanks for a really enjoyable conversation and your »»»»»»» hospitality »»»»»»» tonight. »»»»»»» Look forward to connecting again and receiving you at the »»»»»»» Media >»» » » » » > Lab >»»» » » » > on my »»»»»»» turf. ;-) >» » » » » » > >»»»»»>» - Joi >» » » » » » > >» » » » » » >» » » » » » >» » » » » » >» » » » » » EFTA00969167 >»»»» » >» » » » » >» » » » » >» » » » » >» » » » » >>> >> >> >> >> Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >>> >> >> >> » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >>> >> >> >> » Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >>> >> >> >> » Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and »»»»»»> Cognitive »»»»»»> Sciences >>> >> >> >> » Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson >>> >> >> >> » Investigator, »»»»»»> and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator >» » » » » » MIT Cambridge, MA 02139 » office - » cell - » email _ » fax - » skype - »»»»>»>> web - htt ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org »»»»»»> twitter - >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >> >>>>>>>>>> *********************************************************** >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may > constitute inside information, and is intended only for > the use of the addressee. It is the property of > Jeffrey Epstein > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ed Boyden, Ph. D. Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, and Paul Allen Distin uished Investigator MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 office - cell - email - fax - skype - web - http://syntheticneurobiology.org EFTA00969168 >>> >> >> >> >> twitter - »»»»» »»»»» »»»»» »»»»» »»»»» -- >>> >> >>. >>. > *********************************************************** »»»> >> > The information contained in this communication is >>> >> >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may »»»»» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >>> >> >> >> > the use of the addressee. It is the property of >>> >> >> >» Jeffrey Epstein >>>»»» > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>>»»» > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >>> >> >> >» and may be unlawful. If you have received this »»»»» communication in error, please notify us immediately by »»»»» return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.corn, and »»»»» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >>> >> >> >» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >» » » » >» » » » >» » » » >» » » » >>> >> >> » Ed Boyden, Ph. D. »»»»> Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group »»»»> Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, »»»> >> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive >>> >> >> >> Sciences >>> >> >> >> Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson >>> >> >> » Investigator, »»»»> and Paul Allen Distin uished Investigator >» » » » MIT, , Cambridge, MA 02139 >»»»» office >»»»» cell - >» » » » email - >» » » » fax - >» » » » skype - >>> >> >> » web - ht ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org >»>> >> » twitter - »»»» »»»» »»»» »»»» »»»» -- >>> >> >>. > ************** ********************************************* »»»> > The information contained in this communication is >>> >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may »»»» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >»»>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >>> >> >> > Jeffrey Epstein >>> >> >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>> >> >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited »»»> > and may be unlawful. If you have received this »»»» communication in error, please notify us immediately by EFTA00969169 »»»» return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and »»»» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >>> >> >» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >» » » >» » » >» » » >» » » >>> >> » Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >>> >> >> Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group »»»> Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, »»»> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive »»»> Sciences »»»> Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, >>> >> >> and Paul Allen Distin uished Investigator >» » » MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 >>> >> >> office >»»» cell - >» » » email - >» » » fax - >>> >> » skype - >>> >> » web - h ://s theticneurobiolo .org >>> >>» twitter - >» » > »»» »»» »»» »»» -- >>>>>>. *********************************************************** »»» The information contained in this communication is »»» confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may »»» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >»>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >>>»> Jeffrey Epstein >>> >> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>> >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >»»> and may be unlawful. If you have received this »»» communication in error, please notify us immediately by >»>» return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and »»» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, »»» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved »>» »>» »>» »>» -- »»> Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >»» Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >>> »Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >>> >> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences >»» Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, >»» and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator >»» MIT ., Cambridge, MA 02139 »»> office - >>> >> cell - >>> >> email - EFTA00969170 >>>. » fax - >>> skype - »>» web - ht :Hs theticneurobiolo .org >»» twitter - »>> >»> >»> >»> >»> ********************** *********************** ************** >>> > The information contained in this communication is >>> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >>> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for >>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >>> > Jeffrey Epstein >>> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >»> and may be unlawful. If you have received this >>> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >>> > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and >»> destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >»> including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >» >» >» »>-- »> Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >» Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >» Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >>> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences >» Co-Director, MIT Center for Neurobiological Engineering >>> AT&T Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, and >» Paul Allen Distin uished Investi ator >» MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 >» office - >» cell - >» email >» fax - »> skype - »> web - ht :Hs ntheticneurobiolo .org >» twitter - >» >» On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Jeffrey Epstein <jeevacation@gmail.com> >» wrote: >»> agreed, . >»> >»> >>> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Ed Boyden cS , wrote: »>» >»» I agree we need to analyze the music -- for the brain, that would be >»» the behavior, I guess? -- but I would also argue that focusing on the >»» music has been the traditional way people have done things, yielding >»>> the very successful field of psychology. Right now we can delve into >»>> the mechanisms by which the music is generated, however -- and almost EFTA00969171 >>> >> certainly that will require far better descriptors and understandings >>> >> of the music itself! So in summary, to advance psychology beyond the >>> >> current state, we need radically new tools to map the brain, and then >>> >> we will have such detailed mechanism that we can push the description >>>» of the music forward too. »>» »>» Ed »>» >>> >> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Jeffrey Epstein >>> >> <jeevacation@grnail.com> >»» wrote: »»» agreed.. but i also need to understand the music and well as the >»>» musician, »»» . can we recognize music from the signals. probably. ? »»» regularities »»» , »»» coherence.. is there a program that can say this signal is a music »»» as >>> >> > opposed to conversation.? you are doing great work and i will >»>» follow >>> >» closely »»» »»» >>> >> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Ed Boyden <MI > wrote: >» » » »»»> I certainly hope that nobody is proposing absurd reductionism! »»»> Certainly we are not. We do value *precision* however -- we need to >>> >> >> measure the system at the correct level of abstraction, to find the >>> >> >> building blocks that we know are important, if we ever want to be »»»> constructive and build up again. >>> >> >> The problem with analogies that are very simple and >»»» physics-oriented, is that while they can display complexity to be >>> >>» sure, they rarely compute anything particularly profound -- even »»»> things like lightning or self-organized criticality or even chaos. >>> >> >> They look cool, but they don't generate intelligence, right? »»»> For the brain: there's complexity of structure that is inherent, >» » » and »»»> that while reductionism is not the goal, it's still true that we »»»> need »»»> **precision** if the data we acquire will be worth modeling. (The >>> >> >> closest analogy might be weather: we can predict the weather far >>> >> >> better now than we could even a decade or two ago, and the reason is >>> >>» that we have the right kinds of data now -- satellite data, >>> >> >> distributed data, etc. -- when you have that kind of data, at the »»»> density and time resolution that are appropriate, then the physics »»»> becomes meaningful and even modelable.) >>> >> >> That's why we need to map the entire brain: then we can watch as »»»> information flows from sensation areas, through circuits that >>> >> >> combine »»»> those sensory inputs with internal process like thoughts and »»»> emotions, >>> >> >> and then into motor and output areas that cause behavior. >>> >> >> To pick a piano analogy: if you want to understand a musician, >»»» it's EFTA00969172 >>> >>» not enough just to watch a finger, or a string, or the sheet music. >>> >>» You need to observe the process as the person learns the music, »»»> controls the keys, and then creates the full musical experience, >»»» right? >» » » >» » » Ed >» » » >>> >> >> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Jeffrey Epstein >>> >> >> <jeevacation®gmail.com> >»»>> wrote: >>> >> >> > sorry, i posed a sloppy question. / From the view of >»>> >» understanding »»»» music, more akin to thought, i think that you need to careful »»»» that »»»» reductionism isn't taken to the absurd level, of looking at the »»»» string »»»» makeup and how it causes sympathetic vibrations, might look »»»» like »»»» intent . >>> >> >> > there is a code that says , hit these strings and a melody >»>> >> > develops. >» » » > it >>> >> >> > has a temporal component , it has amplitude, but unless it is »»»» looked >» » » > at >» » » > as »»»» a whole the music is not there. I like aversive , as it appears »»»» hard >>> >> >> > wired, as another out side idea, look at the mathematics of »»»» lightning, it descrives well neural firings, with energy »>»» > minimization. >» » » > >» » » > >>> >> >> > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:54 AM, Ed Boyden <MI > >>> >> >> > wrote: >» » » » >>> >> >> >> The piano itself isn't quite the analogy to the brain, because it »»»»> has >>> >> >> >> no memory, independent of the human playing it. After the finger >>> >> >> >> lifts, the strings quiets down. »»»»> So I am assuming that we need to model the human playing the >»»»» piano? »»»»> Suppose, say, we want to understand what emotion is generating >» » » » the »>»»» music. >>> >> >> » If we could measure activity in the brain of the person playing >» » » » the >»»»» piano, and could predict what melody or sequence of notes the >»»»» person »»»»> would play, based on that activity, then we could infer that the >>> >> >> >> internal brain activity was causing the melody. This inference »>»»» might >>> >> >> >> be convertible into proof, if we were to stimulate the brain and »>»»» play EFTA00969173 «< « « « « «< « « « « agi Tumaumun.; amoutpw 2umunq os ;um am UED muwo sdew «< « « « « eisnuj «< « « « « Supwoqulloa qum Xuew sdnoß Now asam saug - am paau ol <<< « « « « aie «««««< am « 2ulann2aq swawpadxa ol duw lno asam OMSJOAE s8ulyl orm • « •o8 sy am treld lno asam endduw `sal2moutpw el,OAA Älluniau « ol « Xem « anlw!s timnwieg -- paqm amsTane s! paapu! u « ol « T! « 8u!ÄnIde « `saA 2u!dopnap NwIduw Emma nmoutlaw puu uatll 1« aaau am paau u iumop-dm omd, :sm2notll «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « « «< « « ««««« «< « « < uO oz I £ 3E Ot7:9 `IAIV p3 EI 0 ualM <a> «< « «« < «< « «« < <« « « « < inßunmaw ««««« esindu! 8upswaun TÄTT Tou ammsodsm jo entigue ««««« /Ca)! <<< « « < 19JJE ««««« am8 aw E ouunl msnw eIopue entimem am s2upTs 4 «< « « « :OMA% «< « « « <uzonww2@uopeamaar> <<< « « « up `an! AIN £10Z st:se ItTly )(WW( Upecla « « pg «< « « « «< « « « (sa8uutp «< « « Msnw «< « « « lanuoa :ouunl) am ueo aminpow am uuwnq puu aas Amg am «< « « « smmwSt) :ouunl) agl TAT"; swawanow puu modwal (2upidnas «< « « « (Ma <<< « « « aps!uutpaw sdew :ouen1) engs `stp8ual wpaluw Sapiadoid «< « « « :sento «< « « « lumsdüld uopuluawaidw! Tutp uua aq Mappow am,;! aneq aand «< « « « agl tnew puu am •ouent !weg asomp lumuluu/Cp swaTsXs smg u «< « « «< « « « `snta Ja8tuu s! aql aaepanq uaahmaq oml panueuM) swaisXs «< « « « sptreunuoa ;um plag am .msnw «< « « « Tauu «< « « « rop!X smwettig) jo am Iionnau qamm uatu pla!X agl aouanbas «< « « « `s11ao «< « « « uopeinw!s 4aq 01 aas moq am Teinamow suopawann uaamwq «< « « « lemsÄtnlow <<< « « ilawm am mim aluinuqs uo u `Talndwoa am pino ti8nowi «< « « « `u!wq ««««< aql Xpopw 2tqaq paXeld - puy J! am adwq u Tufflaatom dew mim() «< « « Jage «< « « « 31auq uE Xemiau wauud ow! `Text 2upas moq wqi pinom EFTA00969174 »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> »»»»»> the right level, and then we can acquire datasets that are compatible with top-down theory, to be sure. -- Another way to think top-down is to work our way inwards, from the observables. We know that behavior -- movement, speech, other action -- is observable; if a feeling or thought is prominent enough, it will be manifest through these channels as an observable. Thus we can also try to infer internal states by their effects on observables, and then to associate neural activity with these internal states and observables. In theory this should scale to arbitrarily complex internal states, not just simple aversive states. Best, Ed On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Jeffrey Epstein <jeevacation@gmail.com> wrote: > i think you need a top down as well as bottom up. as > looking > at > my > piano > while being played, i can go string by string ( not string > theory > strings). hammer by hammer, material of string , molecular > interaction > naturalvibration, harmonics, sympathtice vibration but >i > would > not > hear > or understand the melody or music being played. I believe > that > each > individual has its own encrpytion algorithm, as the > neural > net > grows > it encrypts some input signals. some are hard wired. so > instead > of EFTA00969175 »»»»»» emotion >>> >> >> >> >> > , movement, speech, etc, I think a proitable area of initail >»»»» » > inquiry »»»»»» should >>> >> >> >> >> > be the hard wired aversive stuff only. smell of dead >»»» » » meat. >»»» » » > >»»» » » > reaction »»»»»» to fire. i tihnk that aesthectics will be the greatest »»»»»» ration » » » » > of »»»»»» output to >>> >> >> >> >> > input. . or the least energy to decode. . dissonance, >»»» » » > cannot »»»»»» »»»»»» easily >>> >> >> >> >> > resolved so the energy to decode the information, is too >»»»» » > high >»»»» » > and »»»»»» becomes >>>>> >> >> >> > painful. Does a dream state come upon us, or do we >»»» » » > dream >»»» » » > all >»»» » » > the »»»»»» time »»»»»» and concious state relegates the dreams to behind the »»»»»» screen. >»»» » » > When >»»» » » > sleep >>> >> >> >> >> > deprived the dreams begin to pop through the screen, as >>> >> >> >> >» hallucinations. >>> >> >> >> >> > a breakdown of the screen , results in a form of >>> >> >> >> >> > schizphrenia, »»»»»» where »»»»»» they >>> >> >> >> >» cann no longer distiguish between voices. dream produced >»»» » » > while >»»» » » > awake >»»» » » > or >»»» » » > the »»»»»» awake state angel on the shoulder whispering. . I am an »»»»»» avid »»»»»» fonder » » » » > of >>> >> >> >> >> > the bleeding edge in many fields. keep me up to date on >»»» » » > what »»»»»» you >»»»» » > are >>> >> >> >> >> > doing, and hope to see you in your own habitat. >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >>> >> >> >> >> > On Thu Ma 23, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Ed Boyden >» » » » » > >»»» » » > wrote: EFTA00969176 >>> >> » » » » >» » » » » » Hi Jeffrey, >» » » » » » >>> >> >> >> >> » Yes, it was great chatting about all the ways >>> >> >> >> >> >> neuroengineering >» » » » » » is >>> >> >> >> >> >> going to go in the coming years, revealing both fundamental >>> >> >> >> >> >> mechanistic brain maps, and providing the control knobs for »»»»»»> fixing »»»»»»> brain disorders and understanding complex phenomena like >>> >> >> >» » » >>> >> >> >> » >> » » consciousness. Would be great to talk about how then to » make >> mathematical sense of these maps and control knobs... >»»» » » » arguably >» » » » » » the >>> >> >> >> » big stumbling block to date is the lack of good data, but >»»»» » » that's >»»»» » » about >>> >> >> >> >> to change, thanks to our current and future efforts! Then >» » » » » » we >»»» » » » will >>> >> >> >> >> have many things that require deep mathematics to »»»»»»> understand! >» » » » » » >» » » » » » Ed >» » » » » » >>> >> >> >> >> » On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 1:16 AM, Joi Ito caa >»»» » » » wrote: >»»» » » » > Hi Jeffrey. >»»» » » » > >>> >> >> >> >> >> > Thanks for a really enjoyable conversation and your »»»»»»» hospitality »»»»»»» tonight. »»»»»»» Look forward to connecting again and receiving you at the >»»»»»>» Media >»»» » » >» Lab >»»» » » » > on my >»»» » » » > turf. ;-) >» » » » » » > »»»»»»» Joi >» » » » » » > >» » » » » » >» » » » » » >» » » » » » >» » » » » » »»»»»»> Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >>> >> >> >> » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >>> >> >> >> » Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >>> >> >> >> » Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and »»»»»»> Cognitive »»»»»»> Sciences >>> >> >> >> » Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson >>> >> >> >> >> » Investigator, >>> >> >> >> >> » and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator EFTA00969177 >»»»» >»»»» » » » MIT, » office - ., Cambridge, MA 02139 >» » » » » » cell - >» » » » » » email _ >» » » » » » fax - >» » » » » » skype - >>> >> >> >> » web - htt ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org >>> >> >> >> >> >> twitter - >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >» » » » » > >>>>>>>>>>>>*********************************************************** »»»»>»> The information contained in this communication is >>>»»»» > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may »»»»»» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >>>»»»» > the use of the addressee. It is the property of »»»»»» Jeffrey Epstein >>>»»»» > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>> >> >> >> >» communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >>> >> >> >> >» and may be unlawful. If you have received this >>> >> >> >> >> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by »»»»»>> return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and »»»»»» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >>> >> »>> >» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >» » » » » >» » » » » >» » » » » >» » » » » -- »»»»»> Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >>> >> >> >> » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group »»»»>» Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >>> >> >> >> » Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive »»»»»> Sciences >>> >> >> >> » Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson >>> >> >> >> » Investigator, »»»»»> and Paul Allen Distin uished Investigator >»»» » » MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 >»»»»» office - >» » » » » cell - >» » » » email >» » » » » fax - >» » » » » skype - »»»»»> web - htt ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org >>> >> >> >> » twitter - >» » » » > >» » » » > >» » » » > >» » » » > >» » » » > >>. >>. >>. > *********************************************************** >>>»»» > The information contained in this communication is >>>>>>> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may EFTA00969178 »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> »»»»> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for > the use of the addressee. It is the property of > Jeffrey Epstein > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited > and may be unlawful. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately by > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.corn, and > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved Ed Boyden, Ph. D. Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, and Paul Allen Distin uished Investigator »»»»> MIT >>> >> >> » office >»»» » cell - »»»»> email - , Cambridge, MA 02139 >» » » » fax - >» » » » skype - >>> >> >> » web - ht ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org >»>> >> » twitter - >» » » > >» » » > >» » » > >» » » > >» » » > -- »»»» *********************************************************** »»»» The information contained in this communication is >>> >> >> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may »»»» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >>> >> >> > the use of the addressee. It is the property of >>> >> >> > Jeffrey Epstein »»»» Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>> >> >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >>> >> >> > and may be unlawful. If you have received this »»»» communication in error, please notify us immediately by »»»> > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and »»»» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >»»>» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >» » » >» » » >» » » >» » » >>> >> » Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >>> >> » Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group EFTA00969179 >>> >> »Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, »»»> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive »»»> Sciences »»»> Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, »»»> and Paul Allen Distin uished Investigator >» » » MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 >>> >> >> office >>> >> >> cell - >»»» email • » » fax - >>> » skype - >>> >> » web - ht ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org >>> >>» twitter - >» » > • » > • » > »»» »»» -- >>>>>>. *********************************************************** »»» The information contained in this communication is »»» confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may »»» constitute inside information, and is intended only for >»>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of >>>»> Jeffrey Epstein »»» Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>> >> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >»»> and may be unlawful. If you have received this »»» communication in error, please notify us immediately by »»» return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and >»>» destroy this communication and all copies thereof, »»» including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved • » • » »>» »>» -- >»» Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >»» Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group »»> Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >>> >> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences >>> >> Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, >»» and Paul Allen Distinguished Investigator >»» MIT ., Cambridge, MA 02139 »»> office - >»» cell >>> >> email - >>> » fax - »>» skype - »»> web - htt ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org >»» twitter - »>> >»> >»> >»> >»> EFTA00969180 >>> > The information contained in this communication is >>> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >>> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for >>> > the use of the addressee. It is the property of >>» Jeffrey Epstein >>> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >>> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >>> > and may be unlawful. If you have received this >>> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by >>> > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and >>> > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >>> > including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved >» >» >» >>> -- >» Ed Boyden, Ph. D. >>> Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group >>> Associate Professor, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, >>> Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences >>> Benesse Chair, New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator, >>> and Paul Allen Distin uished Investigator >» MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 >>> office >>> cell - >» email >» fax - »> skype - »> web - ht ://s theticneurobiolo .org >» twitter - » »-- » ***** ****************************************************** >> The information contained in this communication is >> confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may >> constitute inside information, and is intended only for >> the use of the addressee. It is the property of >> Jeffrey Epstein >> Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this >> communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited >> and may be unlawful. If you have received this >> communication in error, please notify us immediately by >> return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and >> destroy this communication and all copies thereof, >> including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved > -- > Ed Boyden, Ph. D. EFTA00969181 > Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group > Associate Professor and AT&T Chair, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, > Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences > Co-Director, MIT Center for Neurobiological Engineering > New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator and > Paul Allen Distin uished Investi ator > MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 > email - > office - > cell - > fax - > skype - > web - ht ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org > twitter - Ed Boyden, Ph. D. Leader, Synthetic Neurobiology Group Associate Professor and AT&T Chair, MIT Media Lab and McGovern Institute, Departments of Biological Engineering and Brain and Cognitive Sciences Co-Director, MIT Center for Neurobiological Engineering New York Stem Cell Foundation-Robertson Investigator and Paul Allen Distinguished Investi ator MIT, ., Cambridge, MA 02139 email - office - cell - fax - skype - web - ht ://s ntheticneurobiolo .org twitter - EFTA00969182